Having worked with wild and feral animals, I do think they form friendships, sometimes surprising ones, but we as humans (who work with animals) call it "bonding" because we don't want to be accused of anthropomorphism. For such animals, of course there's the question of survival, which is closer to the bone (so to speak!) than it is for many modern humans, but the bonding I've seen goes on in spite of survival stresses, and loss of the friend can result in the bereaved one grieving longer & harder than I've seen humans grieve.
But is it what you're talking about here? including a recognition of a good that is above & beyond the relationship, or the individual? but which both recognize? I have no idea. I suspect so but I could be anthropomorphising ;)
Beyond the question of animals, it strikes me too that the same flattening of relationship that Robert Bly talks about in Sibling Society has done a number on friendships--there's a strange need lately for people to agree on everything, and an almost violent turning away when there's disagreement, which is killer for true friendship. Also, work stress. I can remember when work (good work, hard to come by now), was a decent ground on which friendships sprang up. Now, that doesn't appear to be the case.
I agree that there's at least some sort of approximation of friendship here.
I think we both anthropomorphize too much and too little - we either flatten out the differences, saying we're both just animals, or we erect insuperable obstacles between the two, forgetting that there are ways in which we're uniquely human, that at the same time are reflected and responded to by the lives and experiences of animals.
Dogs, for instance, respond to humans in quite a unique fashion. We're not dogs to them, yet we're not just some other animal. They seem mystified and amused by us in a special sense.
For most of my life I was completely open to differences of opinion and philosophy among my friends. But over the last 10 years watching my american liberal friends convert themselves into mala-fide fascist warmongers and nazi doctors, and not realize it, well that’s a complete break. Something, I don’t know what (Satan?), has taken the good out completely. I can’t face them
For some reason I think identity has been caught up with opinions, perhaps because what were cornerstones of identity in the past (nationality, region/town/city, profession/trade, even class) have been whittled away. Therefore people cannot stand for their opinions to be questioned as it is tantamount to the questioning of self. If you take away their stance on all the hot button issues, what is left to define them? It is ironic that with all the modern focus on ridiculous identity p[politics that people have lost their identity.
It seems to be very much a city focused phenomenon however, as I have found that in the countryside and small towns there is far greater acceptance of differing views amongst members of the same community. In fact, like an ecosystem it leads to greater community resilience and less intra-member competition. If the hippy lives next door to the right wing gun nut, they can actually both help each other rather than compete.
This has even been maintained over the last few years despite the divide and conquer strategy of authorities. A feeling of 'He is a bit mad/different, but he belongs to us'. Again, this reinforces that this has something to do with the dislocated urban/global mass desperate for an anchor. Ellul and Spengler had a lot to say about this.
Touching reflections. Friendship as an expressionon of love is, for me, one of life's purest joys and greatest mysteries. When I first encountered friendship, in mid- childhood, its joy was apparent and not at all mysterious. To me as a child, friendship was but the happy consequence of shared simple feelings and modest insights between me and my new best friend. It was the condition of two school children who simply liked each other because we like the same things. ('Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free".) Yet, later, upon experience as an adult and after close reflection, (as you have done so sensitively) I learned that friendship is a mystery and that comprehending it is well beyond the grasp of feelings and the reach of reason. And I saw for the first time what I believe most adults see for the first time in mid-life, that friendship is poorly expressed and inadequately explained by words, except perhaps those of poetry and religious mysticism. Even the words of Aristotle, Cicero and CS Lewis fail fully to plumb the depths and illuminate the heights of friendship as I have experienced it. (I think St. Thomas does it some justice.) As we grow old unable to advance that adult insight and accepting of the poor empirical, analytical and communicative powers of our human condition, we also become grateful for our awareness that the joy of friendship is, in fact, an inexplicable mystery of the human condition. For me, it seems that mystery enhances joy and joy deepens mystery.
Thanks for this. I heartily agree. To actually be able to identify a tangible mystery, to perceive it yet only obscurely, is something that's really opened my mind as well as served to re-anchor my entire worldview.
For if I can actually identify something like this, yet not fully possess it, it's inevitably the case that there's more to reality than can ever even in principle fit in my own narrow framework of experience.
Then there's truth and reality forever beyond my grasp, which for some reason is infinitely comforting.
Yes, it is strangely comforting to accept that "there's truth and reality forever beyond' the grasp of humans. Not sure why that is comforting. Pehaps it's because we crave reassurance that aspects of truth and beauty will not be screwed up, uglified, distorted or destroyed by human intervention. That seems to be an aspect of religious faith, as well, that since God, not man, controls everything, man can't mess up everything. Illogical assumption, at odds with human freedom willed by God. God could will destruction of his creation if it is an act of human freedom. He willed destruction of his Son.
Having worked with wild and feral animals, I do think they form friendships, sometimes surprising ones, but we as humans (who work with animals) call it "bonding" because we don't want to be accused of anthropomorphism. For such animals, of course there's the question of survival, which is closer to the bone (so to speak!) than it is for many modern humans, but the bonding I've seen goes on in spite of survival stresses, and loss of the friend can result in the bereaved one grieving longer & harder than I've seen humans grieve.
But is it what you're talking about here? including a recognition of a good that is above & beyond the relationship, or the individual? but which both recognize? I have no idea. I suspect so but I could be anthropomorphising ;)
Beyond the question of animals, it strikes me too that the same flattening of relationship that Robert Bly talks about in Sibling Society has done a number on friendships--there's a strange need lately for people to agree on everything, and an almost violent turning away when there's disagreement, which is killer for true friendship. Also, work stress. I can remember when work (good work, hard to come by now), was a decent ground on which friendships sprang up. Now, that doesn't appear to be the case.
And yes, very well put on the last paragraph.
I agree that there's at least some sort of approximation of friendship here.
I think we both anthropomorphize too much and too little - we either flatten out the differences, saying we're both just animals, or we erect insuperable obstacles between the two, forgetting that there are ways in which we're uniquely human, that at the same time are reflected and responded to by the lives and experiences of animals.
Dogs, for instance, respond to humans in quite a unique fashion. We're not dogs to them, yet we're not just some other animal. They seem mystified and amused by us in a special sense.
For most of my life I was completely open to differences of opinion and philosophy among my friends. But over the last 10 years watching my american liberal friends convert themselves into mala-fide fascist warmongers and nazi doctors, and not realize it, well that’s a complete break. Something, I don’t know what (Satan?), has taken the good out completely. I can’t face them
For some reason I think identity has been caught up with opinions, perhaps because what were cornerstones of identity in the past (nationality, region/town/city, profession/trade, even class) have been whittled away. Therefore people cannot stand for their opinions to be questioned as it is tantamount to the questioning of self. If you take away their stance on all the hot button issues, what is left to define them? It is ironic that with all the modern focus on ridiculous identity p[politics that people have lost their identity.
It seems to be very much a city focused phenomenon however, as I have found that in the countryside and small towns there is far greater acceptance of differing views amongst members of the same community. In fact, like an ecosystem it leads to greater community resilience and less intra-member competition. If the hippy lives next door to the right wing gun nut, they can actually both help each other rather than compete.
This has even been maintained over the last few years despite the divide and conquer strategy of authorities. A feeling of 'He is a bit mad/different, but he belongs to us'. Again, this reinforces that this has something to do with the dislocated urban/global mass desperate for an anchor. Ellul and Spengler had a lot to say about this.
Touching reflections. Friendship as an expressionon of love is, for me, one of life's purest joys and greatest mysteries. When I first encountered friendship, in mid- childhood, its joy was apparent and not at all mysterious. To me as a child, friendship was but the happy consequence of shared simple feelings and modest insights between me and my new best friend. It was the condition of two school children who simply liked each other because we like the same things. ('Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free".) Yet, later, upon experience as an adult and after close reflection, (as you have done so sensitively) I learned that friendship is a mystery and that comprehending it is well beyond the grasp of feelings and the reach of reason. And I saw for the first time what I believe most adults see for the first time in mid-life, that friendship is poorly expressed and inadequately explained by words, except perhaps those of poetry and religious mysticism. Even the words of Aristotle, Cicero and CS Lewis fail fully to plumb the depths and illuminate the heights of friendship as I have experienced it. (I think St. Thomas does it some justice.) As we grow old unable to advance that adult insight and accepting of the poor empirical, analytical and communicative powers of our human condition, we also become grateful for our awareness that the joy of friendship is, in fact, an inexplicable mystery of the human condition. For me, it seems that mystery enhances joy and joy deepens mystery.
Thanks for this. I heartily agree. To actually be able to identify a tangible mystery, to perceive it yet only obscurely, is something that's really opened my mind as well as served to re-anchor my entire worldview.
For if I can actually identify something like this, yet not fully possess it, it's inevitably the case that there's more to reality than can ever even in principle fit in my own narrow framework of experience.
Then there's truth and reality forever beyond my grasp, which for some reason is infinitely comforting.
Yes, it is strangely comforting to accept that "there's truth and reality forever beyond' the grasp of humans. Not sure why that is comforting. Pehaps it's because we crave reassurance that aspects of truth and beauty will not be screwed up, uglified, distorted or destroyed by human intervention. That seems to be an aspect of religious faith, as well, that since God, not man, controls everything, man can't mess up everything. Illogical assumption, at odds with human freedom willed by God. God could will destruction of his creation if it is an act of human freedom. He willed destruction of his Son.
Wow. That really hit the nail on the head
Thanks man. Cribbing from Aquinas again!